Unstress Your Leadership Style with Guest Amy Leneker

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Now let's get on with the show. What I realized at the very bottom of my burnout is that I wasn't in my values. Values, if you're not part of them, then they're setting you up to fail. Hey everyone, welcome back to Make It Happen Mondays where we talk about sales, business, entrepreneurship, personal growth, mental health and everything in between with guests who I truly respect and I think make a positive impact on the world around us. And talk about making a positive impact on the world around us. Amy Lenniker. This is such a cool conversation. She is a recovering workaholic turned joy strategist and author of the upcoming book here, Cheers to Monday. Now I know that sounds a little bit cheesy, but as you listen to this podcast, you will realize why I think it's so important because everybody I know is stressed right now and people are freaking out about how fast things are moving, what AI is doing to the world, the politics, you name it.

And she's got some incredible frameworks that she uses, very simple ones too, to help people deconstruct stress and leverage it the right way and not let it crush you because that's what happened to her. She was a C-suite executive. Everything was going right. And then she literally burnt out. I mean, burnt out apparently her. She like at the highest level and did it twice. And so as she went through that, you know, she decided that she really wanted to write a book to help people figure out not just the stress that they were impacting on themselves, but also the, how their actions were increasing stress on other people, which was then in turn increasing stress on them, specifically when it comes to leaders.

So she's got an awesome origin story. She's doing some incredible work out there. We talked about leadership and there's a really cool Stockdale paradox that I've never heard about. which is the balance of, you know, the here and now and dealing with reality and having hope for the future, but not necessarily being a, the ultimate optimist. And some really cool stories about, uh, how that helped with a POW get through, you know, years of being in, uh, encamped and then her unstressing method, which is see sort, solve and celebrate. So it's a really specific approach to looking at stress a different way. And also just joy as a leadership principle, which again, sounds a little cheesy, but man, you know, she, she talks about the difference between joy and happiness.

And I think there's an important distinction there. Happiness is usually dictated by somebody else. Joy is internal. And I think we all need to have a little bit more joy in our lives these days and focus on what we can control. So as always, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. So let's make it happen. Amy Leniker, welcome to the make it happen Monday podcast. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you. I said on the prep as we were, before we hit record, probably should have hit record as soon as we started, jumped on here. But, you know, I've been looking forward to this conversation, um, because for those of you listening right now, we're really going to get into, I mean, macro stress, um, but, and how to deal with it.

And I think there's just so many people right now freaking out. Um, so I thought it was a really good and timely conversation to have, and you got some really cool books and all the work that you're doing. So I'm looking forward to getting into all of that, Amy. But as I always do with all these shows, I love the origin story. So I know you grew up in the Midwest. I know that kind of instilled some work ethic, India, and then you did some cool things. So walk us through the stuff that's not on LinkedIn, the stuff that like, what made Amy, Amy parents environment growing up? Um, I know you said you were a little bit of a misfit or didn't really fit in, in school. And so talk to me about how all of that shaped who you are today.

Yeah. Thanks for asking that. Isn't it funny how the stuff that's not on LinkedIn is the stuff we really want to know. Like we need a LinkedIn that's not LinkedIn. So you nailed it. Yes. I grew up in the Midwest in a, in a home with a lot of love and not a lot of money. So there is just a scrappiness that's built into my DNA that I don't think is ever going to go away. Um, and you're right. I spent, and I think this is true for a lot of people. I spent most of middle school and high school, just really feeling like I didn't belong. Um, what really worked in my favor though, was my favorite place in school. My kids still make fun of me when they know this was the library. So I just, I read for, I know I was such a nerd, uh, but, and now I'm a researcher for a living.

So it's like, if I could go back and tell that awkward middle schooler, like, girl, you just keep reading and researching. And one day you're going to get paid really well to do it. Uh, but I think that's really what shaped me. It's just my core values are still the same and they've evolved as I, as the seasons of my life changed, but really who I am at my very core, it is still the same. And, and I think that's a, I think that's a testament to, to how I was raised. Hey, taking a quick break here to remind you to check out some of my sales training programs at jbarrows.com and use discount code podcast for 20% off the individual packages. If you're not interested in training or you don't think you need it, then you can still support me by leaving a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform or G2.

If you've already gone through my training before, you can also sign up for my newsletter on jbarrows.com where every single week I put out a newsletter that breaks down what I'm learning out there. Some of the new tips and tools and tech and resources that I'm coming across and some stories from the streets of train wrecks that I go through and stuff not to do. So if you could do one of those things, either sign up for the membership, give me a five-star review or follow me on the newsletter. It would mean the world to me. Thanks for your support. Now let's get back to the show. Oh, no question. I feel very blessed. Same on my end with my parents and kind of the values they instilled in me.

I'm curious on that note, though, on values, because I think value, you know, you hear Simon Sinek all the time talking about your why and all this stuff, right? I think that's good, but I think that there's a time and a place for that. Like, you have to be mature enough. You have to have enough experience. You have to have some context to really figure out, like, what is your why. But I think values go all the way back. And I think that they can do, you know, a kid can go through the exercise. An adult should go through the exercise. When did it become apparent to you? Outside of just watching your parents and getting the values from how they interacted with you, when did values become apparent to you, that these are my values, this is how I like to live?

For me, it was at one of the darkest moments of my life. It was when I burnt out bad. And I mean bad. I don't do anything half. I won't say the word. I don't want to get you bleeped. But if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it all the way. And that was true for burnout, too. I didn't just burn out a little bit. Like, I went all in on it. And that was a real unraveling for me. Like, I had to really figure out who am I and what am I doing this for? And I had this really dark moment where I had thought I was living into my values. It's one of the things I prided myself most in. But what I realized at the very bottom of my burnout is that I wasn't in my values. So, yes, I was living into family.

Yes, I was living into service. Yes, I was living into these things that have meant so much to me my entire life. But I was absent from my own values. And that was when everything shifted for me. That I had to really understand that values, if you're not part of them, then they're setting you up to fail. And I got really curious. Again, this is the nerd part of me. I got really curious and started asking anyone who was willing to talk to me about it, about their values and are you in them. And for many of the people that I talked to, they had the same awareness. Like, no, you're right. Like, I'm doing these values almost as something I have to do, not as who I am or how I want to live my life.

And so for me, that was a really big, painful but powerful shift. You know, it's so interesting. It's the commonalities of when and where people, you know, get woken up for certain things. There's always threads. I had the same exact, not exact. I had a very similar experience. But it wasn't until later. Because I was thinking Grow Rich and I had my 12 guidelines to success and all this other stuff. And, you know, and that was what I looked at. I'm like, yep, that's me, you know, all this stuff. And then I had a really dark time. Dad passed away. All this other stuff, business was in trouble. And so I went back to with a business coach. And we went and did the, like, actually did the value exercise, right?

And I had never done the value exercise before. These are my values, but I'd never done the exercise before. And I'm curious, when you say you weren't living it, I'd love to hear your example on this. Because I thought I was too. And, you know, the value exercise in the sense that you take 50 values, you get the 20, you get the five, and then you prioritize, right? Give or take. And when it came down to it, there was one that was, you know, family. Family was on the list, of course, right? And I was like, well, and when he asked me to prioritize him, I said, wait a minute. Isn't family, like, always number one? Isn't that kind of the default? And he goes, no. He goes, if you want family to be number one, you need to write it down.

You need to live it. And you need to ask yourself, with every single decision you make, how is this going to impact my family? And when he said that, it literally hit me like a ton of bricks. And I was just like, oh, fuck. I'm like, I wasn't, I was saying I was doing this for my family, but I wasn't. I was doing it because I was really good at it. I was doing it because I love traveling, and I love being the guy up on stage in front of a thousand people. Like, did my family benefit in some way? Sure, financially. But was it, was I living my value of family as number one? Absolutely not. And that's where it just, like, kind of like you, it just hit me. I was like, oh. So, can you peel back your example of family?

Like, you thought you were living family, but when you really dug into it, you weren't? Because I'm curious kind of where that realization came to you. Yeah, and I'm sorry about your dad. Thank you for sharing that. And I think what you just shared is often what I hear from leaders and my own life, too, that it's those painful moments that really make our values clear. And I think in those times, we have two choices. We can do something different, or we can just keep going. And it sounds like you chose the path of doing something different. So, for me, it was I was at the very bottom of my burnout, and I had always assumed that family was number one. I mean, what kind of a monster doesn't have family as their number one value?

But fortunately, I was wise enough to have a therapist at the time. I think at least, I don't know if this is true for you, but all the best leaders I know have a coach, a therapist, and usually both. I mean, it takes a support system to do this work. And it was really through therapy that she helped me unpack, are these values mine? Are these values I inherited? Are these values that are going to get me where I want to go? And so, to finally do the values exercise from a place of authenticity, not from a place of what I thought it should be or what I thought it could be. And I had to give myself the freedom to define what that meant for me. So, at the time, we had two little ones. And so, to be working full-time and being a – you know, you've got little – you've been a parent.

You are a parent. And to just allow ourselves to define what that means. That if I work late, that doesn't mean I don't value my family. That means I had to work late on a Wednesday. If I work late every day of my life, well, now I've got an issue. And so, just giving myself the freedom and the grace to redefine that as the seasons of my life changed was really meaningful for me. I like that. And I think that you said it right. You know, values, I don't think they change, but they evolve. And the priorities of them evolve. Because there are some times in life where, no, family is not the number one priority right now. I need to go make money. I need to go do this, build my career so that long-term my family can be successful.

So, therefore, I'm – like, it's not going to be family first right now. But I think it's understanding that and having that conversation out loud with your family so that they understand. And I think that's what – you know, when I have, you know, talked to friends and couples and that type of stuff, I don't do, you know, formal therapy or coaching or any of that stuff. I just maybe give my advice, you know, when people are saying, well, my wife's always – or my husband's always angry because I'm traveling all the time. I'm like, have you all sat down and actually mapped out your plans and goals of what you're trying to accomplish? And they're like, well, no. I'm like, well, you're always going to argue then.

Because if that traveling – if you both agree that in five years you want to retire here and do this and do that, da, da, da, da, da. And you both come to that conclusion of, yes, that's what we want, well, then this travel, you know, honey, whoever you are, is important for us to generate the revenue that I need. So, I understand I'm not home all the time and you have to take care of the kids and support the house and all that other stuff. But there's a reason we both agree that we're doing this. So, it gets rid of so many arguments because we've collectively said this is where we want to go and this is why I'm doing these things. But if you don't have that vision, it ends up just being, oh, you're never home, you don't care, you know, and now everything falls apart.

So, is that – do you coach people through kind of like that vision plan, togetherness and everything else to back into it? Absolutely. And what you were – as you were describing it, it made me think, and it's almost cringy, but it's the best business tools that work outside of business too. Because what you just described is a strategic plan. Do we have a strategic plan for our family? Are we clear on our vision? Are we clear on our mission? Are we clear on our values? Our kids used to joke. So, when they were little, we would have committee meetings, but they were non-voting members. So, we would bring them to the table. They would get to weigh in. They were like advisory members. But my husband and I got the chance to vote.

So, we tried to use these business tools in our family, not to go too far to the extreme, but also how do you learn from exactly what you said? The same way that a company who doesn't know where they're going is never going to get there, the exact same thing is true for our lives and our relationships outside of work. Yeah, and I think that's why people feel so much stuck in place. Because they're not moving towards anything. They're just moving. And I think when you're moving towards something, and it doesn't have to be like, I've never been like a hardcore goal setter. And you know what I mean? Like, oh, I'm going to, you know, everything. And I applaud the people who are, quite frankly. But I'm always an evolutionist in the sense that I have the direction I want to go, but, you know, ebb and flow, depending on what comes up.

So, I think it's having that direction is critical. Otherwise, you're just going to be stuck in neutral pretty much your entire life. Well, and it reminds me of the conversation I love that we were having before we even hit record about the pace of life right now. And as humans, we're just not designed to move this quickly all the time. And so, what's being asked of us, it's really taxing on our systems. And I think you nailed that perfectly. Yeah, I mean, and for context, for the people listening, I mean, we were talking about, you know, I used to see my daughter, you know, I never understood time until I had my daughter. And then as soon as I had my daughter, I was like, I could watch time.

I literally could watch it. And, you know, I'd be gone for two weeks and come back and, oh, my God, she grew up another, or she's so much more mature or whatever it was. It was like, oh, my God. And then AI hit. And I think that's, again, the part that is really uncomfortable for a lot of people right now. Now they're freaking out because we are literally watching evolution happen right in front of our eyes where you and I, and I'm not, I'm 50. I don't want to tell anybody who is, but over the years, again, as we've evolved our generation, things fall off. It's like, ah, bummer. You know, oh, I remember that was so awesome. But, oh, it's not here. But it's almost like I forget it's not here anymore because I was just, but now we can, you can literally today see something and be like, oh, my God, that's so fantastic.

That's a new thing, whatever it is. And then in less than a month, it's now irrelevant or it's out of business or it's not something that's even part of the equation anymore. And it's like, what? You know, I just saw human evolution that's taken thousands and thousands and thousands of years take 10 minutes. And I'm scared shitless of that. You know what I mean? To your point, I don't think we are, just our DNA is not built to handle the speed of change right now. And I think that's what's really giving a lot of anxiety to a lot of people. Yeah. And I see it in organizations all the time where we used to talk about change fatigue, but it's beyond that. This is so much different than that. This is people just wondering, do I have the capacity or do I even have the interest to follow and be at this pace that's being required of me?

Well, there's this, I've actually talked about this a lot. There's a, you know, the book Jolt Effect by any chance? No, tell me. So, so in the sales side, obviously, right? There's, there's challenger sale. There's all these methodologies and challenger sale came out with challenger sale, challenger customer, but then they came out with jolt effect. Okay. And what they realized, the whole study behind it is a lot of deal. Everybody in sales obviously says that their biggest competitor is no decision, right? Client just not making a decision. And that's true. Like if you bundled up all of our competitors, that's the biggest one out of everybody. But what, what challenger and jolt effect on cover here is it's actually not no decision.

It's indecision. And the reason is, is that things are moving so fast and there are so many options that people are scared to make a decision. Yeah. So they just don't. Yep. Because very few people get fired for not making decisions. Whole lot of people get fired for making bad decisions. Yeah. And these days things are moving so fast. This is why there was another report that came out from MIT that talked about how like 95% of corporate initiative, AI initiatives fail. Right. And I think I obviously know why. I think AI is great for the individual, right? Create my own little GPT here, be super, but corporate, the top down methodology of decision making. I mean, think about it as an executive.

I have to identify the problem. I then have to go figure out three to five vendors that solve that problem. I then have to go through the process of evaluating them. I then have to decide on one, implement it, train my team. You're nine months out from any real implementation of any systematic AI initiative, right? And can you honestly, Amy, look me in the face and tell me what you know this world's going to look like in nine months? Or even nine days? No. My point, right? So now it's like, I'm just going to kind of stay here. Yep. And so I think that's just, it's paralysis right now. People are like, I don't know. That's why I say agility and adaptability is like for all your kids, you know, out there.

Like, I don't know what skills to teach them other than adaptability, confidence, values, critical thinking, those type of things, work ethic, right? It makes me wonder about the research from Stanford that shows we make about 35,000 decisions a day. I have to believe it's more than that. I have to believe that in the years since that's been done, I wonder if it's, I mean, I don't even begin to guess what the number is. But there's no question that we're making more than ever before, which makes perfect sense what you said, that there's just this cognitive overload. I often joke, it's why I love shopping at Trader Joe's because, do you know how many kinds of raspberry jam they have? One. Just one?

Oh, Trader Joe's raspberry jam. Like, I go to Safeway, no offense to Safeway, but there's a preserve and a jelly and like, I don't, I don't even know anymore. Like, I just make my life easier for the love of everything holy. The decision fatigue is a real thing, too, because, you know, I used to roll my eyes at, you know, Zuckerberg's and those guys who were like, oh, you know, because they always wore a black hoodie or, you know, Steve Jobs, he was his turtleneck. And they said it was for decision fatigue. I'm like, shut up. Like, come on. Like, oh, no. But then, and you had commented when you saw, like, my Make It Happen shirt, like, I was forced into, because I travel so much, I'm like, how can I fit five days in a backpack?

So I was like, oh, here's my, here's my slogan, you know, put a jacket on and I'm good. And so now, every day, I have three colors. I have blue, black, and gray version of this shirt. And every day I wake up, I grab my Make It Happen shirt, I put it on. I don't think about it at all. My jeans, I'm good. And so, and it is so liberating to not have to sit in my closet going, huh, did I wear that last time? Did I? Right. Right? And it's a real thing. So I think removing those stresses, and we're going to get into the book because, you know, you talk about some frameworks that you can use to, you know, that stress isn't like the, it's the thief of success, not the price of success. So we'll get into that.

But I, real quick before that, I wanted to ask about your decision to kind of get into, from a college standpoint, what gave you the itch to get into public service, like public administration? Like, because state and local government is a different animal than corporate in a lot of ways. My wife sells to state and local government. Oh, yeah. And I used to set my first job was, or second job was Xerox selling to state and local government. So I'm very familiar with it. But there's people who are purpose-driven. There's people who are like, want to get into public service. And then there's people who kind of fall into it. Where did you hit? I think it found me. So I live in Olympia, which is the state capital.

And so my first adult job was a state job. And I fell in love with this notion of public service. And I spent 22 years doing it. I worked in seven agencies, the legislature, just this idea of being part of something bigger, being surrounded by people who wanted to do good things for the people that, for the communities that they live in. And so even now, as a consultant, the bulk of my clients are government. I do work with Fortune 100s, which I love. And if you're listening, keep hiring me. And government is my heart. Like, I love working with state, local, federal governments, just because I understand so much of that feeling of showing up every day, trying to do really good work for public service.

Well, what do you do for, so let's talk about that for a second. What do you do for state and local? Because I can easily see, you know, in the corporate world that I live in, you know, stress is all over the place. And there's mindfulness and there's, you know, especially in the tech industry, you know, some of the companies they even have, like, they have, you know, a masseuse and, you know, on staff and all this stuff. What do you work, what are some of the main things you work with local governments or divisions of governments on with what you do? You know what's so interesting? The issues are exactly the same. I had spent 22 years, like I had mentioned, in government. So when I went to do my first consulting job outside of government, and it was, I won't say the tech company, but you can probably guess it based on where I live.

And I thought, what am I going to do? How am I going to relate to these people? How are they going to have any idea that my skills, am I even going to match, you know, that middle school thing again? Am I going to belong? And within 30 minutes, the takeaway was, oh, right, people everywhere, it's the exact same issues. So when it comes to stress, it's the same thing. The environment looks different. Whether you're deploying a software system around the world is very different than if you're providing a public service in the state of Washington. But the fact that we're humans moving through a stressful system is exactly the same. And so the work that I do, the environment looks different, but the work, it's the same work.

The core. Yeah, it's kind of, you know, with me, clients are always like, well, we're special. I'm like, yes. And? And you're not. You have the same issues. And sometimes I always laugh because, you know, I've been doing this for a while. And so if you're like, you walk in and they're like, well, let me tell you why we're different. And you just sit there with your head and you nod. You're like, yeah. Oh, I've never heard that before. No. Oh, man. I've never, never worked with a company who's had those issues. Right. And so you don't want to be condescending, but you also, you know, it's like, I get it. I know if I was 22 years old, maybe you could explain this to me. But I'm 50 here and I've been around the block and I see this all the time, no matter what.

The moments I love after what you just described is once you've been working together for several months or you've had a big win, then you can actually go back and remind them of that conversation. Like, do you remember the first day we met and you said, and then there's this moment of just laughing and connection and love it. It's fun. All right. Let's talk about some of the guts here to help some people out because you got your book is cheers to the first one. And I saw you have another one coming out, right? No. Cheers to Monday. It's the first. Okay. This is the one. Yep. Perfect. So cheers to Monday and it says, you know, I'd scan through it and reframing stress is again, unstressed rather than accepted as inevitable at the unstressed method.

And you have this ABC. So talk us through, first of all, because I'm on the verge of writing a book. Oh, tell me more. Well, I've been trying to, but I, but I was right about to write a book about sales and like, cause I wrote a book with my daughter called, I want to be in sales. I see it in the back. Yeah. And, um, and that was my kind of F you to the industry because I'm like, what am I going to write about? Like, I don't like reading and you know, I kind of feel like a hypocrite. So I wrote a children's book, right? And it all goes to charity. But, um, but then my next was like, cause I want to really empower younger generations to, to really understand sales as a profession. So the, the original book was going to be like, okay, if you're high school, like what is it, what are the different options?

And like, this is sales. But now then AI came out and I was like, Hey, I could write this book in three seconds. Like there's nothing special. So what I've decided to do is I'm going to ultimately write a book and it's called, uh, my sales story. Well, no, all right. My sales stories. And it's going to go all the way back to when I was a kid and the first thing I sold and how I evolved and how I was a waiter and like all these kinds of life moments that AI can't, that AI can't talk about. So I'm going to, and, and through that, the learnings across. So whether, you know, if you're on, if you're a kid in high school, hopefully some learning lessons, if you're a kid in college, hopefully some learning lessons.

If you get into the corporate world, some learning lessons and just map out my entire life of stories. And, um, and it's a lot easier for me to write because there are stories and I'd all I have to do is think of them. So that, that's the one that I'm going to, I'm, I haven't yet been able to sit down and really kind of nail it, but there is a, it's a, it's a labor of love writing a book because you're not usually going to become rich on the book. And he said, people like, Oh, millions of copies. Yeah. Amazon took 95% of that. Thank you very much. And, uh, I get a residual check for $14 and 95 cents a month. So, um, so first of all, why were you driven to write this book? And then what was in, what was the core, some of the core philosophies around it?

Yeah. Thank you. And before I answer that, sign me up to pre-order yours. I'm all in. I wrote. Oh, thank you. Cause you're exactly right. The stories are the piece that AI will never replicate. It's impossible. And I think we're in a loneliness epidemic. We are, we're the most connected and disconnected generation ever. And so the stories that are in your heart and in your history, yes, take the time to, to put those down. Uh, so to answer why I chose to do it, I feel like there were two reasons. So the first one was I am a keynote speaker. So I do dozens of events. And at the end of them, people would always say, where can I get your book? Like, well, I don't have one. So I knew I needed an answer.

Like, okay, I need to have the book. And the second one, I really felt like I had to, and I know that sounds cheesy, but that really is my heart. It was this journey that I had gone through of burnout and back. And I did it twice. I think I might've forgot to mention that to you. So I burned out horribly, horribly. And I recovered. Well, once wasn't enough for me because, you know, overachiever. So I had to do it again. So I thought, okay, there's gotta be something here. And so then I just went on this research quest of figuring out why does this happen? What is the pattern? How do we interrupt that pattern? Not just for ourselves, but for other people. And to me, that's what had been missing in the research is that so often through the day, really well-intentioned leaders and colleagues do things intentionally or unintentionally that are burning out the people around them that are causing tremendous amounts of pain that they just never know about.

And so that's where the framework started to come together was through research and interviews and focus groups and on hearing all of their stories is where the framework evolved. Love that. And I think that's, it's, it's almost like you don't know you're the problem until somebody points it out to you. And I, that for me, it happened when I was relatively young, you know, probably 25, six, and I was had six or seven reps and, and I was, I was the player coach. And I remember I would go to a conference, I would go to something and I'd come back to the sales bullpen and I'd walk into the room and at the white, I'd be like, Hey guys, you know, I'm going to, let's, I'm going to brainstorm with you.

And I'd, I'd throw some stuff. And it was really, I realized it wasn't because I, and I, this sounds horrible. It wasn't necessarily because I cared about what I thought it was because I just didn't want to, I wanted to do this in front of other people and kind of think out loud. And inevitably I would, I'd walk out. And if there was a camera on that room after I left, you would probably see everybody looking at each other. Like what, what, what the hell was that? Like, why, what are we supposed to now do something? Like it's just, I don't know. And, and, and I realized that was the problem. And again, with kids, you realize you're the problem because if you're running around stressed and all that other stuff and, and freaking out and all of a sudden your kid is angry or stressed or whatever, and you don't make that connection that it's, it's you idiot, you know, you're the reason why they have that.

So how did, how do you help people recognize that in themselves that they are the problem? Not, not for their own stress, but for other people's stress. I think it's awareness, but I think it's also delicate. And here's why, because I work with thousands of leaders every year. And what I kept seeing at, particularly after the pandemic is that leaders were aware of it. Leaders knew that their stress was causing their team stress. Okay. That's good. Which actually just made them more stressed. Well, there is the problem right now. I got this awareness. So let's say you and I work together. I'm your leader. I know that if I'm stressed, it's going to cause you stress. So I pretend like I'm not, but you know that I am.

So now all of your fight or flight is activated because I'm saying one thing, I'm doing another. My stress level's increasing because I'm not being honest about what's happening with you. And the awareness came, I'm a certified mediator. I specialize in workplace conflict. And after the pandemic, actually through the pandemic, I had never done more workplace mediations in my entire career. Conflict was off the charts. But it makes sense, doesn't it? Our stress, our fear, the ambiguity, the who are we, where is this going? And so I kept coming up against that same thing in mediations where leaders and their direct reports were having this awareness that the leader was trying so hard to not stress out their people.

And it was actually causing them more stress. And to me, that is heartbreaking. Help me understand. I've always wondered this is the level of transparency. When I was at Basho, this training company, my boss, you know, sales books, leadership movies to watch. And there was one U-547 with Matthew McConaughey. And in this, they're in the middle of the ocean in a submarine and they're going after the Russians or whatever it is. And the captain dies. And Matthew McConaughey is the second in command. And all his people look at him and say, what do we do? And his answer was, I have no idea. Now, my former boss positioned that to me as a bad thing. He was like, this is where leadership falls. Like, you need to step in and give them confidence and all this other stuff.

But people can smell bullshit a million miles away. So in that instance, if he had been like, oh, well, I got this. Like, we're going to do this and do that. It's like people would have been like, dude, I don't. That would have been, to your point, worse now. Because now I think you're full of shit. And my fight or flight is now way risen. So what is that line of transparency as a leader? Because the same thing happened to me. Early 2023, my company fell apart. And I was like, I was panicking. Like, literally panicking. I had 20 employees. We were going out of business. I saw the business. Like, we were professional services. It stopped on a dime. And I'm like, okay. And I tried to motivate.

I tried to be like, no, we're going to be all right. Here's the plan. And this is what we're going to do. But in the back of my head, I'm like, Jesus, this is fucking big. And I failed horribly at transferring my, at walking that line of transparency and urgency and panic and openness, but not, like, so where is that line? How do you help people figure out that line of transparency so that they don't freak everybody out, but they also don't let everybody know, like, I'm cool when I'm not? Yeah, I get asked this a lot. I was just asked this yesterday. And my answer is always the same. So, to me, the way to find that balance is the Stockdale Paradox. Are you familiar with that term? The Stockdale Paradox?

Stockdale, no. So, the Stockdale Paradox. It was named after Admiral Jim Stockdale, who was a prisoner of war. And Jim Collins was writing a book that later became Good to Great. And he was interviewing Admiral Jim Stockdale because he wanted to find out, how did you, as a prisoner of war, live, how did you survive when so many people around you did it? There was no question. Many of the Admiral's colleagues did not make it to the end. And Admiral Stockdale said that it was because he was able to hold, and in some ways, it's exactly the tension that you were just describing. He was able to hold the tension between what's really happening. This is horrible. This is awful. This is dire. There is no questioning it.

This is bad. But, never losing the hope that things were going to get better. And it gives me goosebumps to read the interview because I've asked, I've listened to the audio. It's in the Library of Congress where he talks about the people who perished first were the optimists. Because they thought, we're going to be out by Christmas. And then Christmas would come and go. And they would say, oh, by next Christmas. And he believes, and I have no reason to think he's inaccurate. He believes that they died of a broken heart. And so having this balance. So in your example, yeah, the company's falling apart. We're stopped on a dime. It's 2023. We don't know where the heck this is going. And being real and honest and transparent.

But also that we're going to figure it out. And if you're a leader, if you're Matthew McConaughey in that example, you've got to figure it out. That's what you've been trained to do. So it's holding the paradox of those two things. And if you just do one or the other, people don't trust you. And I go into teams all the time where leaders need to rebuild trust because either they're on the Pollyanna side, they're saying things are great and the team is saying, no, it's not. Or they're doom and gloom and nobody wants to work for them because they don't know where we're going. So it's how do you hold that tension of those two realities? I think that is kind of almost, I don't want to say the definition of leadership, but that characteristic right there.

Because to your point, I have some friends who, oh, yeah, no, it's great. It's great. It's great. Everything's great. Everything. And you just know, like, dude, I know it's not great. Like, for you personally, forget about the company. Like, oh, how's things? Like, I know your home situation is not good, but no, no, things are great. Things are great. It's like, stop it. But then on the flip side, I got friends who are just Debbie Downer all the time. And it's like, oh, this is always me. And I'm like, God, I don't want to be around any. I don't want to be around you at all. Right. And I don't want to be around the fake optimist. And I don't want to be around the pessimist. That realist. And I think what, you know, based on what you said there, I think the piece that Matthew McConaughey needed to add to that when he said, I don't know, was, but we'll figure it out.

That's right. That's right. And I think that mentality, it's funny because, you know, this make it happen has always been my mentality. But I actually been toying around with the idea of creating another shirt called Figure It Out. Oh, yeah. Because I think we've lost that, especially this generation. Like, we were the last generation that had to figure it out because we were latchkey kids. Parents weren't home. No technology. Go out in the street. Just don't die. And now every kid's life is structured. Every kid's life has, you know, from step by step by step. And so the figure it out mentality is so rare. Yes. We've been telling our kids since they were tiny, when it's true, of course, that you've got all the tools and resources you need to make this happen.

Like, you, which is another way of saying, figure it out. And we do this in workplaces, too. And what I think is so disheartening about the loss of that is that once you do it, once you figure it out, there's this moment of confidence. There's this moment of, like, yeah. I mean, not to sound corny, but, yeah, I can do hard things. I can figure out tough things. And so if we're always jumping in and rescuing our teams, if we're always jumping in and rescuing people at work, we're really robbing them of that ability to figure it out. I think for leaders, it's knowing what those differences are. It's not letting people struggle beyond. They've done everything they can do. Now, of course, you have to jump in.

But knowing when to offer help and knowing when to offer some coaching instead. Yeah, it's such a balance. I mean, same thing with you kids, right? Like, it's so hard to watch your kids struggle. It's so hard to know that that decision they just made is going to lead to the outcome you know it's going to lead to. But yet they won't listen to you, you know. So they have to touch the stove sometimes to burn the hand. And I don't want her to burn her hands, but sometimes she needs to burn her hands. We're in the sandwich generation, so I'm seeing the same thing with my parents. There are times I think, okay, they're just going to have to make this mistake and figure it out. It's like we're kind of right in the middle of both of those.

Yeah, I think Gen Xers are – it's weird. I think we're in such a unique position for where we are right now because of the figure-it-out mentality, because of the, like, lack of structure and everything else and how fast things are moving. I – and obviously I'm biased, but I actually think we're the best situated to handle what's happening right now because it's like, yeah, okay, this was my childhood. Like, shit changed all the time. Like, I was – you know, I broke things. I didn't stop whatever it is. I had to figure it out. But that's the fear of this younger generation of not having guidelines, not having structure to – you know, and it's paralyzing. Same thing going back to businesses, right?

Paralyzing people as far as their decisions. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about this unstressed method. See, sort, solve, celebrate. Yes. When is it applied, where is it applied, and what is it? It's applied everywhere, and it is so simple, which is why the subtitle of the book is The Surprisingly Simple Method because I believe – and this isn't just my thought. This is after 150 interviews. I led a national study on stress and joy, so I have data to prove it – that we have overcomplicated stress. We are stressed about solving our stress. We are stressed about stress. And so this is so simple. So step number one, you've got to see it. So imagine that you are going to be cleaning out a closet in your house.

You've got to pull everything out in order to see what's there. So when I work with leaders and teams, step number one is we actually create a list of everything causing stress on that team. And folks will be hesitant, like, gosh, is writing it down going to make it real? It's already real. I was going to say, yeah. It's already there. So step one, we've got to see it. Step two, then we have to sort it. The bulk of people that I interviewed did not understand that there are different kinds of work stress. So we can sort it into actionable categories because otherwise you're applying the wrong situation to the wrong problem. So I teach people how to sort it into five actionable categories. And then in step three, you solve it without spinning.

There is a simple matrix. And wherever your stressor lands on that matrix, it gives you a next guiding step. It takes away the analysis paralysis. It takes away the overthinking. And it says, here's what I can do in this situation. And what I've loved the most about the framework is that I've seen it work in Fortune 100 conference rooms. I've seen it work on the floors of warehouses. I was with a group of daycare providers a few weeks ago, and they just glommed onto it. So it really feels like it's a universal remedy to something that's universal. I think labeling has always been, from a psychology standpoint, really important, right? When you label what it is that is stressing you or label your feeling, right?

And I think to your point of identifying, seeing it, like, let's take a look at what it is. Because it's not just the one big thing that's stressing every, you know, in sales, it's always, you know, oh, we're going to hit the numbers. You know what I mean? Well, yeah, that's a huge part of the stress. No question about it. But there are about 8 million other small little things that are building up to add to that stress that are not helping in any way, shape, or form. So I got to imagine that exercise. What are some of the, just out of curiosity, what are some of the things that have come up in those brainstorming sessions that were unexpected? I was actually just going to share with you, so you're such a good interviewer because you got me before I even got there.

So one of my favorite times I did this was I was working with a technology team, so a government technology team, where they had done the exercise. They came in and had written on all their stressors. And it works the best if they can do it on Post-it notes. If we're virtual, we use a virtual whiteboard because then we can make the sorting a lot easier. So when we were able to sort into what the group was going to focus on versus what they didn't have to, I'm actually going to have you guess. What do you think were the number of stressors that this 10-person team had been feeling that the leader said, you know what, we don't actually have to worry about those? So the number of stresses they put down that they said versus what leadership thought?

Yes. So these are things that as a leader, these are keeping me awake at night. And then you came into this facilitated conversation where the executive said, no, we're not doing that. That's off the plate. We don't have to worry about that right now. What number do you think? Oh, I got to, I mean, I got to imagine it's, I mean, I would break them down in a big minor and little. So, you know, I would probably say at least a couple dozen or so, like a dozen or so. And I write about in the book, 73. And I am telling you, you could have, you could feel the shift in the energy of the room. There was this relief, of course, but there was also, there was a grief and almost a sadness that, that these folks, I mean, the bar was high.

This wasn't little stressors. These were literally things keeping you awake at night as a leader in this organization. They had been carrying 73 of them that the executive had said, this isn't a priority. This isn't what, so now there's the disconnect. And you think, how did we get here? Well, we got there because they were moving at the speed of light. They were moving so quickly. So all of that to say that the framework isn't about the framework. The framework is about creating the conversation where leaders and teams can work together differently. And I don't know if I'll ever beat that number right now. 73 is the record, but it just, it blew me away. Ah, yeah. Well, and I think that it kind of goes to the, I think the trap of leaders.

And I realized this about myself recently going through some therapy. It's, you know, I'm a very linear thinker in, in the sense that I usually think things through pretty quick as far as what it is. And then I, then I bring it to my team as, Hey, what do you guys think of this? And my patience is, is not there because of their, like, I haven't given them the context. They have no background on this. And I, and they're like, but, and they, and a lot of times, you know, when you come to somebody with, well, what do y'all think about this? There's an immediate negative reaction of risk and wait, no, and I don't want to change. And now there's frustrations. Like, what are you talking about? Like, this makes total sense.

And so that disconnect is massive. And is it, is it like facilitated discussion that helps understand, get that going? Or is there, is there something that leaders can practice on a weekly basis to kind of, um, uh, remind themselves that sometimes that they're, what are some of the things that they can do to, to really make sure that they're keeping track of the fact that I, I know that these things are probably making stress for them, even though they shouldn't. Absolutely. So it's about normalizing it into how they work. So it's not about doing something different. I, the way I describe it to leaders and teams is that you have to think about the work around stress, the way you think about the work around trust.

I can't schedule work on trust. I can't say we're going to talk about trust on Wednesdays at one 15, because that's not how trust works. That's not how humans work. Everything you do is either building trust or destroying it. Everything you do is either increasing stress or decreasing it. And it's just that simple. So it's helping leaders and teams have that mindset shift of awareness. And it's not to say that you can avoid stress all the time. You might be taking on a big initiative that is stressful. Great. Then let's acknowledge that. Let's plan for that. And let's make sure we're not doing what that technology team was doing, where they were carrying 73 other things around with them that weren't important.

So it's how do we, how do we build the space for what's going to be most important for us? How did you realize you were burnt out? Oh, my body told me. And it had been whispering for a long time. My family and friends were begging me to slow down. And I kept saying I would. I just have to get through this busy session or this busy quarter. Well, there's no such thing. Everyone just moved into the next one. I'll never forget it. My dad, trying to be so kind, bought me a book on rest, the power of rest. And it was this thick. And I thought, okay. And this is when the kids were little. I hadn't read a book outside of if you give a mouse a cookie for five years. I'm going to read a 300-page book on rest.

So my body just shut down. I got incredibly sick. I ended up being off work for weeks at a time, just over 12 weeks, which I had never done in my adult life. I had started working at 15. I'd never have 12 weeks off of work. So that's how I found out. My body just, it shut down. And so my hope is that no one else has to do that. We don't have to do that. There should not be any situation where organizations are allowing that to happen, where individuals feel like it's okay for that to happen. So the awareness moving in, I think prevention's always better than trying to fix it. Oh, totally. So how do we prevent that moving forward? And the impact stress has on health is just insane. And relationships.

Did you see the study just came out a few weeks ago that 70% of people who have had a divorce or a breakup contribute work stress as a key factor. For Gen X, it goes up to 79. That's really high. I have a feeling that Gen X, if on average, Gen X are probably the most workaholics of any generation. Exactly. And we can feel it. We're seeing it in our bodies. We've seen our relationships. We see it. It's manifesting everywhere. It's weird for me, at least, because I just, there's an uncomfortableness of relaxing. Yeah. There's an uncomfortableness when I'm not doing something somewhat productive, right? I mean, I can go on vacation. I've never been a sit on the beach type of guy. We take two week vacations.

And that's enough because one week isn't enough because you don't get to downright two weeks is good. But we did a three week vacation one time. And I swear, after the second week, I was so bored. And we were in Bora Bora. We were in like the most beautiful part of the world. And I'm like, I got to get home. I'm like, I'm so bored out of my mind right now. I got to do something. And so I just think that's just built into a lot of our DNA, which is, I guess, good and a bad thing, obviously, right? So if you know how to deal with that, then great. I didn't mean to laugh at your experience, but bored and Bora Bora, like that's a t-shirt waiting to happen. Trust me, right? Like, it's like, oh, cry me a river, right?

That's fantastic. So let's, let's talk about, let's finish on a positive note. Yes. Joy. Yes. You talk about joy being a, as a leadership principle. Tell me a little bit about that. Absolutely. So we are tired of talking about stress and burnout. Organizations are burnout from talking about burnout. And I think we need to shift the conversation to talk about joy. Because joy isn't something we have to wait for. It's not something that when stress and burnout are over, now we get to experience joy at work. Joy at work is actually scientifically shown to be a buffer against stress and burnout. So it's shifting what role joy plays in organizations and how do we include that and just infuse it in everything that we do.

So the other, the other thing I love, and I know we're almost out of time, the difference between joy and happiness. So there are thousands of studies on workplace happiness, but the problem with happiness is that it's dependent on other people. So in order for me to be happy, I, there's an outside, there's an external component to that happiness. So if, and I know you're not a toxic boss, but hypothetically, if you were one, if you were my toxic boss, it would be hard for me to be happy at work. But joy is internal. And so I am able to experience moments of joy at work, even if I'm in a hard work situation, not to stay there. The idea is not to say I'm going to be stuck here forever, but it's that joy then gives you the momentum to make a decision, to give you the confidence to get out of that bad situation.

So that's the distinction of, of happiness and joy. And I, my mission is to have people lead and live with less stress and more joy, that it, it all comes down to that for me. So one more question on that. How do you instill joy in a workplace environment without being cheesy? Because that, that has always been my problem when it comes to like leadership, implementing these new things. And it's like, great, everybody get up and let's hug each other. And, and I'm, and I literally sit in the back and I roll my eyes. I'm like, give me a break here. I'd rather freaking, so, so how do you, how do you uncover joy or facilitate joy without being super cheesy though? You got to get out of the way. That's what you do.

You don't schedule it. You don't, I, I, the best example is my husband. So my husband snowboards every Friday in the winter. His calendar doesn't block all day for joy. His calendar blocks snowboarding and joy just follows. That's what leaders need to do. I'm an introvert. If I'm in one of those meetings where they start doing one of those exercises you just described, I go to the bathroom, not because I don't want to participate just because my anxiety is so high. I can't be in this fake, whatever this thing is. So it's helping people understand what toxic positivity is and how dangerous it is in organizations and how creating healthy environments and joy just follows. I love it. And I think that is a fantastic place, even though I could keep having this conversation for a while.

Oh my God, I'm so sad it's over. I think that's a fantastic place to end it. So, so why not, so tell the audience where they can find out more about the book, about what you're doing and, and kind of who also you're looking to serve, right? Because you said you, you're trying to bring that, but who out there listening, if you're faced with X, you know, this is where you can go. Thank you for asking. So for any, for any leader team or organization who wants a different way, who wants to lead with less stress, more joy, you can find it all on amyleniker.com. The book comes out March 24th, but it's available now everywhere. I've got this moment in my head of seeing it in an airport and I just can't wait for that to be true.

So I'm 73 days from today, but who's counting? Love it. Well, you know what you could do is I, I cheated the system a little bit. I brought my book to, uh, I brought my book to the airport and I put it there and I took a picture. I love this. And it was, again, it was kind of my anti-book thing, right? I was like, look, my book. And I just left it places because I had a ton of them. I might just do that. Yeah. It's more, you know, obviously I'm fun with it. Right. Sure. But that's the whole game with, with books too. It's like you, you pre-order as much as possible so that, you know, day one, it goes to the top of the list. You take that picture and now you're a bestseller, right? Yes. I booked an Amazon bestseller for a solid 15 minutes.

Good luck with that. Thank you. I so appreciated this. Thank you for what you do in the world. Oh, thank you. And I, and that's why I said, I was, you know, looking forward to this conversation because I think there's enough stress out there for everybody, uh, to deal with it. You have a macro, micro, uh, I think it'd be one thing if it was just the normal day to day that we all go through. But if you start to layer on the AI, the political landscape, like the stuff that is just out of our control, it really builds up fast. And I think that's, what's crippling a lot of people right now is, is, is focusing on things ultimately that they can't control. Exactly. And, you know, joy comes from the stuff that you can in a lot of ways, I think.

Great. Well, Amy, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. It's been a fun conversation. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And everybody, I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. And like I said, at the end of all these podcasts, go out there and make somebody smile today. Because no matter how bad your day is going or how bad you think it went, if you make somebody smile today, you know, you had a good day and the world needs a lot more of that right now. So thank you all very much. And I will see you on the other side. Hey, everyone. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. With your support and our incredible guests, we're one of the top sales podcasts out there right now.

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